What is happening in Georgia?

There has been a lot of virtual ink spilled on the subject of the recent Russian incursion in Georgia, and the domestic political ramifications of same, but rarely so succinctly as this:


For years, the Bush foreign policy team has tilted heavily toward Georgia in its ongoing disputes with Russia, clearly leaving the impression (at least in the minds of Georgians) that the U.S. would come to Georgia's aid if the two nations clashed militarily. Bush told Georgia, during a 2005 visit, that "the path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone." Bush has sent American military advisors to build up the Georgian troops - who reportedly staged a joint exercise last month with 1,000 American soldiers. Bush has also urged bringing Georgia into NATO, a move long supported by McCain. The president has not been successful in fast-tracking membership, but here's the thing: Under the NATO treaty, members are required to defend other members. All for one and one for all. Which means that if Georgia was currently a member of NATO, we'd be warring militarily with Russia.

It gets more complicated. Georgia has long been in conflict with two breakaway regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia - both of which want independence, both of which are supported by Russia. Georgia has sought to quell the separatist movements in those regions, and apparently assumed that the U.S. would come to its aid in any showdown with Russia. McCain has also fed that impression; last April, he got on the phone with the president of Georgia and expressed his solidarity - after a briefing with top foreign policy advisor Randy Scheunemann, a neoconservative whose private lobbying firm signed a contract this spring to provide Georgia with strategic advice.

Obama, it must be noted, has also supported NATO membership for Georgia; however, in July he publicly urged Georgia not to launch any military attacks in the breakaway regions. But Georgia, apparently fortified with what it viewed to be sufficient American solidarity, overreached late last week and launched a military attack in South Ossetia. Which in turn triggered the massive Russian response. Which in turn triggered McCain's outrage about "Russian aggression," and his warning of "negative consequences" for Russia (all of which was echoed by Dick Cheney, who warned darkly, "Russian aggression must not go unanswered"). Then, on the radio yesterday, McCain took his statements up a notch, declaring: "I think it's very clear that Russian ambitions are to restore the old Russian empire." Then, at a fundraising lunch today, McCain (who now says he speaks daily with Georgia's president) warned again that the Russians are thirsting for empire, and said that he is dispatching two of his top campaign surrogates, Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman, off to Georgia. 

Rhetorically, at the very least, a certain somebody needs to take a chill pill.

Dick Polman - Toughness and bellicosity Philidelphia Inquirer 13 Aug 08

I'll say.  And those inclined toward a shallow 1938 Munich Agreement 'appeasement' analogy will gladly look no further than the relationship between politically Russian Ossetia and the ethnically German Sudetenland in the Czechoslavokia of 1938, framing Russia as the oppressor and hegemon.  The Western 'allies,' incidentally, were in no position, in 1938, to make any belligerent opposition stick at the time, and their leaders knew it.  A familiar situation perhaps to our current predicament as a consequence of our 'nation building' and alliance damaging exercises already under way.  And the analogists would be wrong as well, Ossetians, a distinct ethnic and linguistic minority, are only slightly less dubious of Russian political suzerainty than Georgian.  It's all about leverage.

The curious thing is that Ossetia is ethnically more Iranian than it is 'Russian,' Ossetia:


...is an ethnolinguistic region located on both sides of the Greater Caucasus Mountains, largely inhabited by the Ossetians, Iranian people who speak the Ossetian language (an Eastern Iranian language, Indo-European group of languages). The Ossetian-speaking area south to the main Caucasus ridge is within the de jure borders of Georgia but is largely under the control of the Russian-backed de facto government of the unrecognized Republic of South Ossetia. The northern portion of the region consists of the republic of North Ossetia-Alania within the Russian Federation.

Ossetia Wikipedia

Food for thought there, eh?  And not least for the Russians, too.  Sure, it may be condoned by their newly minted economic collaboration with Iran but it cuts both ways if things go pear-shaped with their Caspian relationships.  Russia has meddled with Iran in the past at least as frequently as the British and their aspirations have changed less.  We Americans have a disastrous tendency, as Polman notes, to see our foreign affairs in simplistic terms.  We could cut the whole thing short with some creative diplomacy, as significantly in Tehran as Moscow and Tbilsi.  The Republicans exacerbated the situation in Georgia vis a vis Russia and are now using it as leverage in their predictable, and clumsy, domestic political machinations.  The reality is far more complex and requires a more nuanced response.  Georgia has plenty to answer for here, notwithstanding the blatant power-play from Putin, and the South Ossetians have clearly made their own case for federation with Russia, if not yet for the autonomy they would obviously prefer.  Putin may be a player but this is a move for which we have no immediate and obvious riposte.  If the Republicans had not been such ideologues and broken our sword so precipitously perhaps we would be better placed to respond appropriately and effectively.

Personally I hope this belligerent Republican rhetoric scares American voters a little, more overtly promoted now by the McCain campaign than even the Bush administration was ever prepared to advance.  It really should.



Display:


Very good diary (2.00 / 8)

And you've hit the main problem with the GOP response to this mess (and really, the neoconservative mindset in general), that they see world affairs in such a simplistic, black and white, Risk-board game style way.  They're stuck in a Cold War view where it is the USA vs the Soviet Union, and every other country in the world is a pawn to be pushed around.  Russia has attacked Georgia, thus we must come to Georgia's aid.  Ignoring the fact that the Russian attack was prompted by Georgia invading an autonomous region similar to Taiwan's status with China.  And of course in that situation we would side with the breakaway province, but here the Republicans would have us side with the first aggressor, simply because the second aggressor is Russia.

The world is more complex than the neocons can handle.  McCain obviously does not have the foreign policy judgment to be president, and I am glad to see that Obama is taking a more nuanced and sensible position on this matter.

It is this ideologically rigid, video-game view of the world that led our country to think that invading Iraq was a good idea, and leads politicians to make such mind-numbing statements as "In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations.", after previously supporting the invasions of two other countries.


by Skaje on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:20:27 AM EST

Re: Very good diary (2.00 / 9)

And you raise a good point which bears on this incident.  If it were not for our recent adventure in Iraq the illegitimacy of this unilateral move by a 'great power' against a smaller sovereign state would be even more harshly revealed, and opposed internationally, as unacceptable.  We seem to have enabled hegemony and are now disarmed of our most powerful weapon with which to oppose it.  The Reagan administration, for all it's weaknesses, understood at least this and used it to great effect.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:37:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Very good diary (2.00 / 6)

An emminently recommendable diary, and an excellent antidote to some of the armchair cold warrior claptrap posted here earlier by alleged Democrats.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:49:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We have been insulting Russia for a while now. (2.00 / 1)

From WW2 remembrance to Missle Shields, Russia has shown more restraint than the US would.

If your going to spit on somebody, make sure they cannot get back up first.

The Republicans have been walking loud and belligerently, and shattered the stick 5 years ago.   And based on John McCain's history and what he has said about dealing with Russia and other countries, his election will be a disaster for us and the world.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 01:50:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 5)

Shaun Appleby Pleaseeeeeee write more diaries like
this. This raises the bar. REC
by Politicalslave on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:18:13 AM EST

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 6)

While the entire situation isn't as simply as anyone makes it out to be, I think that this quote from a piece in the Economist back in early July makes for a pretty simple reason why Abkhazians have aligned themselves with Russia... I suspect the situation in Ossetia isn't much different.

...Yet even if integration with Russia seems unappealing, to many the idea of being part of Georgia is worse. "At least Russia did not fight against us," says Stanislav Lakoba, head of Abkhazia's security council. He adds that Georgia's hard line and Europe's indifference have driven Abkhazia into Russia's arms.

Ultimately, when you're being shelled, I suspect you become quite willing to embrace any nation or force with the power and the will to stop that shelling.

It's another key difference between Hitler's Sudetenland gambit this current situation -- Hitler claimed repression and atrocities against ethnic Germans by the Czechs, but no one really bought it... not then, not today, not ever.

I'm not defending Russia's incursion into Georgia - but there's no doubt that Georgia HAS repressed these two 'breakaway' Republics... The first shells fired in this conflict were by Georgia, not Russia -- though the shells were not launched at Russian troops.  

And democratically elected though he might be, Saakashvili has shown very little interest in stopping, much less acknowledging and correcting, Tbilisi's often brutal dealings with these two enclaves.

To the contrary - you could argue he's used sentiments against the Abkhazians and Ossetians (whose hands are hardly clean) to his electoral advantage.

'Democratically elected' is not a proxy for 'unconditionally benign'.


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:46:40 AM EST

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

And BTW, FWIW, though I haven't at all faltered in my earnest support of Obama -- I think he is dead wrong about wanting to admit Georgia to NATO.


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

Obama, to the best of my knowledge, has not said straight out that he favors admitting Georgia to NATO.  He thinks NATO should extend to Georgia a NATO membership action plan.  This would be a list of conditions which Georgia would have to meet in order to be eligible for such membership.  It's not a conditional offer.  Georgia could meet these conditions and still not become a full member.

So it's unclear at this point.  Does Obama favor extending this as a sign of NATO's willingness to support Georgia?  Or does he really think Georgia should be a member?  And the wisdom of the second, to some extent, turns on future events (just one example, if Georgia ceded South Ossetia and Abkhazia and then became a member of NATO that might be one way to resolve this crisis).


by IncognitoErgoSum on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:59:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 3)

I would argue that's splitting hairs -- one does not support 'extending an action plan for elibility' if one doesn't support the ultimate ends of that action plan.

I think that doing so fundamentally subverts the raison d'être of NATO -- NATO was a defensive pact, and expansion into a new nation that was a part of Russia proper as long as Texas has been a part of America is an unnecessarily provocative move.  This is different from the admission of the Baltic states -- 100 years matters.

It's a somewhat moot point - our European allies in NATO will certainly continue to block any such move, and bully for them for using their much deeper and broader experience in dealing with Russia to the alliance's advantage.

None of this is to say that I don't wish to see a fledgling democracy cultivated and supported... but it very much IS a fledgling democracy that still has a lot to learn about the finer points of democracy.   Georgia was a lawless nation ruled by warlords and an ineffective Tbilisi regime just a decade ago - for better or worse, NATO shouldn't be a nursery for their development.

There are other, better avenues for that -- and selfish as it may sound, avenues that don't thrust America and other NATO members into a situation eerily similar to the tangle of alliances that existed in 1914 Europe.

As much as we may have cheered it - the breakup of the USSR was not very clean, and there remain many unresolved issues amongst the former USSR nations.  I'm not advocating giving Russia a free hand in settling those issues to its advantage, but I'm also not in favor of the 'west' simply exerting solutions that supposedly fit our geopolitical interests (by defining our narrow interests solely on the continuing decline of Russia as super power).

Medvedev, or more accurately, his puppet master Putin, might simply be a necessary evil at this stage of Russia's national development -- just as Andrew Jackson might have been in the development of America.  

We don't need to trust him - and we don't need to just gift him regional hegemony - but neither do we need to be provoking him... and by moving towards a military alliance with a hostile neighbor that was, for nearly 150 years, part of the Russian empire - that's really all we're doing.

Perhaps if Georgia hadn't made a habit of poking the bear - and didn't look and awful lot like they saw NATO membership as a green light for their own provocations, I'd be more sympathetic.


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

I think you're right down the line.  Started writing my own post suggesting comparisons between the current situation and 1914.  A small nation is trying to reverse a quasi-annexation by an imperial power, ambiguity exists about what obligations and commitments exist, etc.  Stopped because I decided this was too alarmist.  What's likely to happen over the next few weeks is that the conflict will be frozen, and South Ossetia and Abkhazia will join the long list of disputed regions where the conflict gets frozen.

One still has to make sense of Obama's suggested policy, though.  It's possible he thinks NATO should offer an action plan but doesn't believe Georgia should become a member anytime soon (similar to how the EU dangles the promise of membership to Turkey with no real expectation that this will include any specific time line).

It's also possible, though, that Obama thinks that Georgia should become a NATO member.  I agree, this is a bad idea, and for the reasons you stated.  


by IncognitoErgoSum on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Hmm...

I am not aware of any reports of Georgian repression in Abkhazian and Ossetia.  Do you have any links on this ?

I am also not aware of any possibility of any brutal dealings (as you put it)... since the two breakaway republics have been outside of Georgian purview for quite some time.

Can you provide some links, or explain what you mean please !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:10:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 2)

Check the story from the Economist I linked above (http://www.economist.com/world/europe/di splaystory.cfm?story_id=11670692) -- note that like I said below, Abkhazia and Ossetia are hardly the innocently repressed... they've got plenty to answer for themselves.

The wikipedia article on the Georgian Civil War, which basically simmered with occasional flareup for most of the 90s...

If you thought Iraqi sectarian conflicts were complicated...


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:22:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Well, I read that article and see no indication of "Georgian repression", as you put it.  On the contrary, the article restates that the two breakaway republics have been outside of Georgian control for ... well, forever.  

Georgia can hardly repress a region it does not control, can it ?

So, which part of that article do you interpret at Georgian repression ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Seven,

It's very clear what you're position is, on this issue.

I'd like to ask you one question:

Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the US Armed Forces?


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Snark,

I have no idea what your position on this issue is... it is sorta hard to tell online, you know!

I'd like to ask you one question:

Are you now, or have you ever been in possession of a full deck on your head ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:40:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 2)

Seven,

Here's my position:  Bush helped to reinforce a power play in Putin's back yard.  This is partially a result of Bush's failed foreign policy.

Is there anyone here, who wants to fight another war, because Bush fucked up...again?

Any volunteers?  How about you Seven?  Are you willing to sign up, for this war?


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:48:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Do you have any evidence to back up your position that

"Bush helped to reinforce a power play in Putin's back yard.  This is partially a result of Bush's failed foreign policy."

or, are you just speaking out of your rear end ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 01:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 2)

Sorry Seven,

I'm just trying to figure out which kind of Hawk you are.  

You've never served, that's easy to see.

Here ya' go.  And it was posted by the diarist:

For years, the Bush foreign policy team has tilted heavily toward Georgia in its ongoing disputes with Russia, clearly leaving the impression (at least in the minds of Georgians) that the U.S. would come to Georgia's aid if the two nations clashed militarily. Bush told Georgia, during a 2005 visit, that "the path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone." Bush has sent American military advisors to build up the Georgian troops - who reportedly staged a joint exercise last month with 1,000 American soldiers. Bush has also urged bringing Georgia into NATO, a move long supported by McCain.

You really need to bone up on your foreign policy, son.


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:03:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

I think you need to beef up your reading skills.  The article cited by this diarist is an opinion piece.  Perhaps you can meditate on the various differences that might exist between an opinion piece, and a reporting piece.  I am sure you will get it eventually !!

And you should also learn how not to jump to conclusions:  I am a reserve Air Force officer from a different country (where I grew up).  I have been shot at ~ I know the sensation!!

And I took part in various peace marches in 2002/2003... while the likes of most Americans were referring to the likes of most of us as "traitors".  Do you remember those days, snark ?

And how about you, Snark... which box should I put you in ?

On second thoughts...never mind.  I don't really care!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:14:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

Interesting.  This opinion piece represents the concensus agreement among non neo-con foreign policy analysts.

If you choose to bury your head in the sand, that's fine.

BTW, Ex-Naval Officer, (USN).  12 years AD, four years reserve, 1.5 wars on the ground.

None of my friends who still serve, (now at the O-6 level, and one is currently teaching at the Naval War College), do not express the excitement for conflict that you show.  

I find you an anomoly, actually, in the demographic that's comprises ex-military officers, (admittedly this is based on all of the opinions of the classmates that I still stay in touch with).


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Oh, I know where the "consensus" lies.  I knew where the "consensus" was back in 2002 as well.

You should learn not to jump to conclusions.  Standing up to a bully is not the same as "excitement for conflict".  Not unless "conflict avoidance" is also the same as cowardice.

I don't find you an anomaly...sadly !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:41:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Seven,

You're perception of this issue is biased, plain and simple.  I don't know why, but you really don't like the Russians.  

I understand that, I started my Navy career in 1984, during the heart of the Cold War.  Our entire doctrine was based on the Soviet threat.  We had to change and adapt to a new reality in 1989, but we did adapt.  

I don't know why you can't.


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

And you should also learn how not to jump to conclusions:  I am a reserve Air Force officer from a different country (where I grew up).  I have been shot at ~ I know the sensation!!

By some bizarre chance, it isn't the Georgian Air Force, is it?  

Just like to know where you're coming from, cause you have quite an agenda.


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 02:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

No, it was not the Georgian air force.  

Like I said, you should really learn how to avoid jumping at conclusions.  You are making quite an ass of yourself !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:29:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

You are making quite an ass of yourself !!

Really?

I don't think so.  I stand by every post.  The readers can judge that for themselves.

BTW, Are you a pilot?  I started my career as an aviator.  Which airframes did you guys use?


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 03:40:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Really, you stand by every post !!

Does that mean you stand by your initial claim that Pres. Bush is partially to blame. ?

Does that also mean you stand by your substantiation of that claim with an opinion piece ?

Does that also mean that you stand by your justification of that substantiation of that opinion piece as a non-neocon "consensus" ?

Wow... you are quite impressive, I must admit !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Dude!  Don't worry.  You can tell me.  I won't get my copy of Jane's and rat you out.

Come on, was it Soviet, British or French gear?  
Or was it ours?

You can tell me.


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:57:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Ooops.  Forgot Israeli.  Was it Israeli?


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:00:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

You need to go out and get a full deck on your head.  

We can talk after that!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:07:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

You need to go out and get a full deck on your head.

I'm not sure what this means.  Can you clarify?

Why are you avoiding my question?  It's a very basic one, and a reserve officer should know all the airframes in portfolio, even if they weren't a pilot.

Come on.  Give me just one.  Please?  


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Adam,
You ARE making an ass out of yourself.

Geez..


by gil44 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Sorry gil44.  I'll stop now.

I'm just trying to figure out why SevenStrings lied about his military experience, that's all.


by snark adam excuse on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 3)

Excellent diary, Shaun.  And let's not forget, we're all Georgians today - John McCain told me so. If that doesn't encapsulate his bizarre grasp of the world stage, nothing does.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:08:56 AM EST

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 2)

The only problem with a nuanced response is the ADD-addled American public's desire to see "action" and forthright, no-hesitation response. This is why George Bush was elected twice and the same reason why Obama needs to be careful that his thoughtfulness comes across as such and not equivocating. Its a ridiculous standard of course but this is what our electorate seems to demand.


by wasder on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:27:49 AM EST

Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 2)

While I find the neo-con response much scarier, I am disheartened that the Democrats and liberal talking heads also seem a bit clueless.

US foreign policy towards Russia has been broken for ten years, going all the way back to the Clinton administration.  It was an enormous mistake to expand NATO (after we had promised them that we wouldn't) and give the Russians the impression that we were slowly encircling them.  The entire Putin years can be seen as a response to this, and it has left a much more aggressive, more nationalistic, and less democratic Russia than before.  People on tv keep saying that "We can't go back to the Cold War."  They miss the point that from the Russian point of view, WE ALREADY HAVE.  They see us as an enemy that has consistently humiliated and threatened them.  

Its time to stop throwing good money after bad.  Draw a line in the sand in the Baltics and the Ukraine, but accept that the Caucasus and the Stans are in the Russian sphere of power.  Making concessions to Russia in this respect is the only way to build the foundation for a better relationship with them down the line, and that's a relationship we will need in the coming century.

Sometimes you have to be ruthless and see the big picture.  Sorry Georgia.


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:33:57 AM EST

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 2)

I agree - I've sort of come to the unhappy place of just accepting that probably for political purposes, the Democrats and Obama are stuck positioning themselves as "slightly less crazy" than the alternative.

Unfortunately, when your opponent seems to insist on playing Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove -- that still places you in uncomfortable territory.

What's more -- several of the stans - Uzbekistan as a prime example, would probably be better citizens of the world if Russia did exercise a bit more regional control.


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:42:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 2)

I agree that Obama doesn't have much choice right now.  I just hope that, if elected, he has the vision to see the big picture and the advisers to help him.  A lot of people in the liberal foreign policy establishment were involved in the Clinton Administration decision to expand NATO and helped lay the groundwork for a very aggressive (if superficially friendly) Russia policy and they are unlikely to admit that they were wrong.  So it will take some new blood.


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:55:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (none / 0)

"Draw a line in the sand in the Baltics and the Ukraine, but accept that the Caucasus and the Stans are in the Russian sphere of power.  "

No.

You don't abandon people like that... like it or not, we've made a commitment to free Georgia and we must abide by our word...

Otherwise we look no different from those folks in Munich in 1938 who carved up Czechoslovakia while Check leaders sat and cried 'cos they had no say.

Georgia does not want to be part of Russia, and they have every right, after hundreds of years of brutal occupation, NOT to be part of Russia...


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 1)

But do the South Ossetians have a right not to be part of Georgia, that's the immediate question, isn't it?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:17:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (none / 0)

I'm not so sure that the South Ossetians have a right to not be part of Georgia. That is really a matter of international law, at the very least. When does a state have a "right" to secede--as a nation state or in a country (South Carolina anyone?) Seriously, I believe we do a disservice to the whole matter if we analyze only through the prism or primarily through the prism of what helps Bush, McCain, or Obama. In my youth and beyond, I studies Russian history and the Russian language for a number of years, have visited Russia, and visited Eastern Europe. Perhaps, my Polish heritage gets in the way of non-biased evaluation here (Polish on maternal side), but I believe that any look at Russian expansionism in Europe has to be taken seriously. It isn't war or peace in terms of only this way or that way; yet, it certainly is a lot more than wringing our hands and bemoaning the present administrations mucking up foreign policy. The move toward the Ukraine and the other former SSRs is serious, and a credible response has to be equally serious. There are certainly many steps between "lets talk" and outright military response. To start with, what about Russia's role in the G8?


by christinep on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:15:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right to secede (none / 0)

The right to secede may be covered by the nations constitution.


by del on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 1)

I certainly agree that Russian expansionism in Europe has to be taken seriously and moreover that Putin is an architect of Russian imperialism, among other things.  He just seems to be better at it than we are at the moment and I think the position being promoted by the McCain campaign, not to mention neo-conservatives in general, is flawed and inherently weak.  Tell me this, if we really intended to make a stand against Russian hegemony is South Ossetia the ground we would choose if we were thinking clearly and not just reflexively reacting to every move Putin makes?  This is chess, not checkers.  Russia has some structural problems affecting their ambitions and I reckon we would be best advised to use them to our advantage in future.  The current equivocal issue of the legitimacy of Georgian and South Ossetian claims, given the dubious ambitions and chequered recent history among all current participants, hardly seems the time or place to draw a line in the sand.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:34:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 1)

You make good points about timing, Shaun. Yet, it is timing plus. A friend of mine (a professor of history of the American presidency) reminded me the other day of 20th century historical moves by Russia that coincide with the end of a presidency or presidential term--when one might posit that we might have certain vulnerabilities--that may be more than coincidence. Going back in time: Afghanistan, Czechoslovakia, Hungary (heck, even the old Gary Francis Powers U2 incident in 1960.) Not dispositive, but interesting. I'm sure that I have as little use for the misguided neo-cons as you do; nevertheless, I believe that the route to the Ukraine is markedly shortened by this maneuver. Whether it is chess or poker.... I do know that this is a consolidation opener, clearly. (While I am not Ukrainian, etc., I do recall the poisoning/assassination attempt in the not-too-distant-past of Yevtushenko. And, the newspapers in Russia are being reined in again. The flags are there.) My comment: Look for the vulnerability--whether re: China or certain European organizations--and squeeze.


by christinep on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 1)

I agree with your assessment of Russian motives and tactics.  My objection is not founded on opposing Russia but doing it smartly, and re-establishing our role as leader of the 'free' world, whatever that means today, in the process.  From your comment it seems we are pretty much on the same page.  I just wish the level of public American domestic foreign policy discourse, both in this election and in general, was better both informed and less jingoistic.  We have much to do and it is not all going to be 'soft power' and diplomacy.  But we have to get our house in order first.  Note that Obama is a 'soft power' advocate who also proposes restructuring and strengthening our military resources.  He can see what is coming and it isn't war but it isn't going to be an internationalist songfest either.

How could the Republicans have let our front-line land and sea based air superiority capability continue to degrade so alarmingly, for example, on their watch?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:02:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Both parties on the wrong track (2.00 / 1)

"You don't abandon people like that... like it or not, we've made a commitment to free Georgia and we must abide by our word...

Otherwise we look no different from those folks in Munich in 1938 who carved up Czechoslovakia while Check leaders sat and cried 'cos they had no say."

This is straight from the Neo-Con playbook, even including the ridiculous analogy to Nazi Germany.

International relations is about tough choices and strategic vision.  You don't just "do the right thing" in every instance and hope for the best.


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Fri Aug 15, 2008 at 02:12:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No clear-cut good guys (2.00 / 1)

I agree that Georgia hasn't exactly been the model NATO aspirant, but they are a fairly-elected western democracy, as far as I can tell.

The problem with this situation, as others have suggested, is that there isn't a black & white situation to handle simply.  Russia invaded a neighboring country which is interfering with what amounts to a civil war (at worst) or rebel insurgency (at best).  Russia is also responsible for arming and supporting the insurgents.  

You don't have to look further than Chechnya across the way to see that Russia is a bad actor in these situations.

On the playground, the kid who hits first often isn't the one who gets punished, because the supervisor only sees the aftermath.  Until we know the truth behind Georgia's attack on South Ossetia, we won't know whether Russia's response was an international war crime or merely horrendously disproportionate.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:50:58 AM EST

Re: No clear-cut good guys (2.00 / 1)

"I agree that Georgia hasn't exactly been the model NATO aspirant, but they are a fairly-elected western democracy, as far as I can tell."

Georgia is not a democracy as measured by Freedom House, which scores all countries in the world on their level of democracy along several indicators.  In fact, their most recent Freedom House score is exactly the same as it was before the "Rose Revolution."  


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:58:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Really? (2.00 / 1)

Since I moved to my new place, I haven't gotten MSNBC.  I suppose I should know better than to think CNN has done their homework.

Anyway, there's no question that these countries need some serious help with that whole "being a democracy" thing.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No clear-cut good guys (2.00 / 2)

Democratically elected though they may be, Saakashvili and the Tbilisi government have violated what I think is one of the cardinal precepts of "democracy" -- that it exists not so much to enforce the will of the majority, but to protect the rights of the minority.  

Saakashvili systematically removed the few sympathetic players to Ossetia/Abkhazia from the Georgian government - and while perhaps not as brutally as previous regimes in the 90s, most certainly do continue to inflict civilian casualties in the regions.

I'm not excusing Ossetia and Abkhazia -- one of the reasons the areas are so thoroughly anti-Tbilisi is that the current players in these provinces basically drove out any ethnic Georgians they didn't kill outright... but rather than foster any sort of reconciliation, Saakashvili has taken a "now its our turn" approach.

For Russia's part - they would respond that Georgia was a major player in providing covert supports to Chechen separatists.  I'm not excusing Russian brutality in Chechnya - but I also can't exactly get behind the Chechen rebels that were regularly blowing up apartment complexes and conducting a terrorist campaign inside Russia.

There's more than enough blame to go around here, but I just feel like Georgia is acting like the too smart by half kid on the playground who thinks he's paid off another bully and now feels he has free reign to taunt the other bully that was pushing him around.

Yet another victim of neocon lunacy - I feel for Georgia, but I have no interest in getting into the protection racket.


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:13:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No clear-cut good guys (none / 0)

Do not forget that Ossetians "ethnically cleansed" Georgians during their skirmishes in the early 90's...  The area used to be 50/50 Georgians... but, after the wars, most of the Georgians fled or were killed.

South Ossetia isn't clean in this matter, either.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No clear-cut good guys (2.00 / 1)

Agreed.  So what possible benefit do we realise by unequivocally taking sides in this dispute?  Or are we just getting sucked into Cold War-style proxy wars with the Great Bear again?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have recced (2.00 / 1)

But I disagree with your premise somewhat.

At this point, as far as formulating a response goes, it does not matter much whether the Georgians miscalculated, or provoked the Russians.  To argue otherwise would be to argue that WW1 was initiated by an assassination in Sarajevo, and ignoring the rest of the tinderbox conditions that existed.

Bottomline #1: Georgia, rightly or wrongly, believes that it was entitled to some US protection.  You can argue otherwise, but it will be harder to convince future allies to be your allies if you abandon Georgia now.

Bottomline #2: Russia, regardless of the provocation, is acting like a bully.  You can ignore it... at your own peril


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:06:53 AM EST

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 2)

One act of bulling usually begets another.  Georgia was trying to push around Ossetia, Russia came and aggressively "helped" the Ossetians.

Our relationship with Georgia is not worth a full scale war with a country that has the second largest cache of nuclear weapons.  


by gil44 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:36:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (none / 0)

And that is why Russia feels that they can do whatever they want... we, the West, are too afraid to stand up to them.

As we all know in politics, the only way to stop a bully is to stand up to them.

Until we do so with some risk and reasonable force, the Russians will continue to walk all over the West, taking whatever they want on the way.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 2)

Too afraid to stand up them?

Its not a playground, the bully analogy can only go so far.
This is not politics its diplomacy.

In diplomacy you have to know when and where to make your stand.  And right now, this is not it.
It makes no sense to go into Georgia and start a war.
I don't believe in this case, Russia would back down.  And after the first US plane goes down, or the first US solider is killed, we will have a full scale war on our hands.

And over what?
Protecting a state that was trying to bully around an autonomous region.
No thanks.


by gil44 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 1)

Nobody said it requires "a full scale war" in response. I hope, really that the left/progressive/liberals do not fit the mold of the right. The right typically and recently has said "military, attack, bomb" response to internationally complex situations (in my opinion.) It is equally fallacious to assume the opposite and wash our hands of any strong and significant reaction to an incursion by Russia or any country. Forget (even if just for a minute) our national political differences and consider the full range of responses in any difficult international situation.


by christinep on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:24:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 1)

Georgia believes wrong.  Without a defense treaty, we owe them nothing.  If there was a treaty, or if they were NATO members, then they would have a reason to expect us to come to their aid, and potential allies would have reason to doubt us if we reneged.  With no treaty, there is no abandonment.

And I have yet to see anyone saying we should ignore Russia's behavior, only that it's reckless to go off half-cocked into a military engagement with them when economic and diplomatic pressure can be brought to bear much more easily and effectively.


by Jay R on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:41:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 2)

By what standard does Georgia believe it was entitled to US protection?  I think Putin has calculated the risks and opportunities more finely than other actors in this instance, to the detriment of our foreign policy.  Our unofficial 'posturing' towards Georgia has been as ineffective as it was unwise.  This round to Putin and he can largely thank our neo-conservative meddlers for their 'support' of Georgia which has turned out to be nothing more than a head-fake to Tbilisi that played into Russia's ambition.  Bad policy executed clumsily by arguably incompetent players exceeding their authority for ideological motives.  And we're the unpatriotic ones?


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (none / 0)

Georgia believes it was entitled to US protection for the reasons you touched upon with the article you cited (the POTUS visit etc. and their troop contribution in Iraq).

Yes, Putin has put some thought into the risks and the opportunities.  Saddam, too, had put some thought into the risks and opportunities before invading Kuwait.  Saddam's calculations was just as finely calibrated as is Putin's.

It just so happened that Saddam's calculations became inoperable because the US created a global coalition that declared those calculations inoperable.

Yes, this round has gone to Putin.  The next round will also go to Putin unless the stakes are increased... to a level where his old risk/reward calculations become inoperable.

Finally, I dont see where anyone is calling you unpatriotic!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 1)

Well, you identified one problem, there is no global coalition here because we have nearly exhausted our influence and reputation among our allies with other recent ill-conceived adventures.  If the other NATO members wanted to admit Georgia they would have.  

And I was referring to the Republican narrative that any nuanced or sensible geopolitical response is by implication 'unpatriotic' when compared to their renewed Cold War belligerence towards Russia.  McCain is particularly scary in this respect.  I consider myself patriotic and unwilling to support the continuation of foreign policy which undermines our power and position through unwise antagonism.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (none / 0)

Well, there was no global coalition that existed when Saddam invaded Kuwait either (I am sure he would have noticed it, if one did exist prior to his invasion.

A global coalition was patched together, under conditions that were not that different then than they are now.  The US was not very popular in the world in 1990 ~ at least in places like Syria and Iran that were members of the coalition then.  It was not that far removed from another war of choice forced upon another country.  Granada was relatively fresh.

Influence and reputation is a renewable resource ~ when you take up worthwhile causes (and standing up to a bully qualifies), that influence is rapidly renewed.  

Likewise, when we throw our weight around for selfish strategic reasons, that influence and reputation is squandered.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 07:48:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 2)

Well there isn't going to be a global coalition on this issue, patched together or otherwise, for a variety of reasons.  As I said, if our European NATO allies wanted to make a test case of Georgia they wouldn't have actively opposed their application to NATO in the first place.  Without them we can do little.  Furthermore we are having difficulties getting a willing consensus in Europe for our ABM missile defence initiative and are again exhausting our influence trying to establish it.  

Just as an aside I think we would be better off trading that system away to Russia for a significant quid pro quo on their cooperation in reigning in Iran with some kind of diplomatic guarantee of their mutual support in future, but that's just me.  I keep wondering why we don't see that at the bottom of the geopolitical shadow-boxing over Iran that Russia is no more enthusiastic about a nuclear capable Iran than we are.  It just suits their immediate purposes to cause us grief over it because they have nothing to lose by stirring up trouble and we are giving them a hard time in Europe and elsewhere.  And for what?  Some neo-conservative  ideological satisfaction and a bit of post-Cold War posturing in a domestic election?  We need to get over it and figure out what our real priorities are.  The sooner we act like we know what we are doing the sooner these 'global coalitions' will be willing to take our leadership on issues that really matter at a time and in a place where the ground favours our strategic objectives.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 08:44:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 1)

I totally agree that seeking Russian cooperation in limiting Iranian nuclear ambitions would be a much better use of our efforts than installing the costly ABM system which has shown little promise in tests and is more likely to create a security dilemma than true security.  Unfortunately news has it that Poland has accepted our many inducements to locating a base on their soil and so the costs of this system may be locked in beyond this administration.  

By the way, what did you think of Biden's article on the conflict?  Coming as it did prior to the cease-fire it not surprisingly put the burden of action on Russia's shoulders.  He also mentioned the threat of Congressional inaction on Jackson-Vanik and nuclear energy cooperation.  I hope Russia's moves towards accepting his terms - ceasefire, recalling troops and negotiating terms - will be met with Congressional consideration of these longstanding measures.  That said, Jackson-Vanik has been used as a carrot for many years now so I've got to wonder whether Congress will ever repeal it.


by Mr DC on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have recced (2.00 / 1)

I think it was pretty good.  Outside of a reasonable and unequivocal demand for Russia to stand-down the threats proposed are all non-violent, practical and achievable, calculated to gain the respect of our allies and yet capture the attention of the Russian leadership.  And none of them are linked to or dependant on unpredictable actions of the Georgian leadership, which is also very wise under the circumstances:


Despite the challenges in our relationship with Moscow, there has always been a strong desire to see the country's epic traditions of achievement, creativity and sacrifice brought to serve the common good.

I have shared this ambition and in the past two months I sponsored two legislative measures intended to nudge Russia toward a closer, more constructive relationship with the United States, including action to allow for increased collaboration with Russia on nuclear energy production. Russia has also lobbied to repeal an old trade provision - the Jackson-Vanik Amendment - which currently blocks the country's integration into the World Trade Organization. The fighting in Georgia has erased the possibility of advancing those and other legislative efforts to promote US-Russian partnership in the current Congress. It may derail them permanently if Russia does not reverse course.

For Moscow, the most obvious casualty of the fighting could be the Sochi Winter Olympics in 2014 - supposedly the crown jewel in the country's campaign to reinvent itself. Sochi is only a few miles from the border with Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia. Regardless of any political consequences, if fighting spreads, it could drive up insurance rates for the games to the point that it becomes prohibitively expensive to hold the Olympics in the region at all.

Russia may face other costly consequences for the violence. Vladimir Putin's plans to make Moscow an international financial centre may evaporate as the prospect of sanctions on the country rears its head. Western financial institutions, which have done little to expose evidence of official Russian corruption, may start pursuing the issue much more publicly.

Georgia has made remarkable political and economic progress since the country's transition to democracy. The fighting will inevitably slow that progress, and exact a heavy toll in lives and treasure. But, however severe the damage, Georgia will rebuild - and the United States and Europe must help. The stakes in this conflict are as high as the peaks of the Caucasus.

Joe Biden - Russia must stand down Financial Times 12 Aug 08

That all makes perfect sense to me and points to Russia's weaknesses and our strengths rather than the other way 'round.  It's just the kind of nuanced but pointed response which I like to see promoted by the Democratic party, especially in an election cycle.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:23:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 5)

Damn, I love these types of threads...I can just sit back and learn valuable info.  Thanks to Fuzzy, zonk, Shaun, skaje and all the others.

Now my dumbass can be educated :)


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:08:18 AM EST

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

Georgia started this mess by invading a semi-automous state and prior to that bombing russian peace keeping troops.  The president of Georgia ran on a platform of nationalism and he has been pushing Russia for months and now he got his knees cut off.

I hate to take Russia side on this but really they are in the right and Georgia is in the wrong.  

david


by giusd on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:16:17 AM EST

Not that easy. (none / 0)

We don't know what truly prompted the Georgian attack... besides, its an internal matter and Russia had no right to send "peacekeeping troops" into an internal Georgian sectarian conflict in the first place.  Most articles I've read say that there's little difference between what the "peace keepers" are doing and what the regular Russian army is doing, which is watching while South Ossetian partisans burn and loot Georgian cities.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 11:10:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

I absolutely disappointed as of how hypocritically and unilaterally the `objective and independent' agencies (CNN, AP, BBC, etc.) present the information from the region: the pictures of ruins, wounded and dead people, volley fire onto a town (nobody can understand which town is shown, is it Ossetic or Georgian ), and the wording below:  "Russia attacks Georgia, there are a lot of victims among civil population", so the whole impression is formed that all these victims and ruins are because of the Russian aggression.
Saakashvili alone speaks on the Western TV, and almost no Russians and especially Ossetes - and, of course, he interprets the events to his own advantage: at the first day (more exactly, the night to Friday, 8.08) of the battle he spoke approximately the following: "Aggressive Russians and Ossetes permanently firing the positions of the peaceful Georgian troops forced us to defend the constitutional order in this Georgian region, and they (Russia and Ossetia) should stop their aggressive actions.
Still Gebbels (the Hitler's minister of propaganda) told that the more cynical is lie the more it looks like truth. Saakashvili goes specifically that way. There was a `little' example in the nearest history - in September 1939 Hitler claimed literally the following: the aggressive Polish frontier guards fired the position of the absolutely peaceful German armed forces and just because of this the valorous German army has to fall with all its power onto Polish provokers. I think you know what turned out from that.

The reality is the following: while Saakashvili has been claiming the necessity of peace negotiations, the Georgian forces armed up to teeth by the US fired the inhabited quarters of the Ossetic small capital (30 000 habitants) which 17 years ago has already endured the tragedy of genocide from Georgia. In Tskhinvali who are being hidden in the cellars of their houses under the storm fire of Georgian heavy artillery, which, of course, `with both hands struggles for peace in the region', I think, until the whole town is razed to the ground. As a result of the sudden attack of the Georgian troops on Tskhinvali in the night to Friday the town is ruined, about 2000 habitants killed, moreover Georgian soldiers threw grenades to cellars where people tried to hide from the fire (by now about 35 000 refugees, i.e. about a third of the region's population, run to Nothern Ossetia), and at last they fired by direct sight to the barracks of the Russian peacekeepers and 12 or 15 Russian soldiers were killed as a result.

In fact, all those photos and videos on the Western TV show the consequences of the Georgian attack, and the rocket fire is of Georgian installations of volley fire (meanwhile, these installations should be used to fire `to squares' not for `dot' (precision) firing - so how to justify this firing to an inhabited town?!), but without comments it is not understandable who fires actually, and with those associated texts (which I've meant already) this points directly to `Russian aggressors'. So where is really any limit to cynicism and hypocrisy?

And, sure, just after the Russian troops entered the South Ossetia, Russian aircraft bombed Georgian military objects, and the 'valorous' Georgian army (which can only battle against unarmed population) run away, Saakashvili gave howl about a Russian aggression against little, poor and peaceful Georgia.

In the meantime, as for Georgian backers, Georgia is small against Russia, but what is it against South Ossetia (about 100, 000 population) or Abkhazia (nearly 300 000)? I guess that there are some victims among ordinary people resulting from the Russian bombardments of military objects (and that's, of course, pity) but they are not numerous as opposed to the real genocide in Ossetia.

Sure, many can argue that S.Ossetia is legally a part of Georgia but, first, this is a very disputable matter and, second, after the third genocide of Ossetes from the side of Georgia during the last 90 years (in 1920, 1992 and now) they don't want to live together with Georgians - and let somebody explain them why Kosovo has this right while they don't (without references to the uniqueness of the Kosovo case - nobody can understand what this uniqueness consists in).


Welcome to a Landslide without white Working class, Latinos, Women, Seniors and holding-on sweeties
by engels on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:23:35 AM EST

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

And now that I find myself more or less in agreement with engels, it is most certainly time for me to get some work done :-)


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 2)

The world has well and truly turned upside down if we are to agree with the One Who Should Have Been Banned Two Hundred Posts Ago.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

Crikey, Engels, we almost do agree about something.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 04:59:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

You have some of your facts wrong... S. Ossettia was 50% Georgian prior to 1992... where did they all go?

It was the S. Ossetians who ethnically cleansed that region 15 years ago, not the Georgians.

None if this justifies the continuous meddling by the Russians over the years and their unjustified attack and invasion over what is an internal conflict.


It profits a PUMA nothing to give their soul for the whole world... but for McCain? --Sir Thomas More (if he were here now)
by LordMike on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 05:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

long post for teh engels.


by Skaje on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 06:33:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 2)

I think you are expecting too much from the media in presenting them as 'independent agencies,' considering their history prior to the Iraq invasion.  I was disappointed to see a CNN anchor continue invoking the specter of a Renewed Cold War after a former US Ambassador to Russia dismissed that as nonsense.  That said, I imagine media access in Ossetia where most of the fighting took place limited any ability to report on what atrocities did or did not occur there.  As for the Ossetians moving North, well, few media organizations I consulted seemed to have access to them either.  I was impressed broadcasters did mention the fact that Russia's actions came in response to Georgian attmepts to reassert control over its semiautomous territory.  

This only shows the inconsistencies in US foreign policy that predate this administration.  US military action to halt Serbian agression in their province of Kosovo was deemed a necessary to limit a humanitarian crisis that threatened the region (rightly in my view).  Yet Russian military action to repell attacks on Ossetians within the borders of Georgia is deemed as an unjustifiable breach of sovereignty...  Furthermore, Kremlin motives are immediately cast as overthrowing Saakashvili and reconstituting the Soviet Empire despite the fact that it agreed on a cease fire once Georgia's attack capabilities were neutered.  

It may be impractical to expect perfect consistency in our foreign policy, but at least we should do a better job acknowledging the disconnect between what we preach and practice before assigning blame.


by Mr DC on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 09:05:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (none / 0)

Amen.


by Shaun Appleby on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 3)

Since the boss is insisting I do some actual work today, I just want to finally say -- I certainly don't want to sound like an apologist for Russia, nor the separatists in Ossetia and Abkhazia.

My point isn't that they are the 'good guys' in this conflict anymore than the Georgian government is the 'bad buy'.

I'm just saying that at this point - no one has really stepped to seize that moral high ground.

I would agree that Saakashvili and the Georgian government probably have the most potential to BECOME that 'good guy' and take steps towards reconciliation, but so far, they really haven't.

In the absence of such a cut and dry paradigm, I just would prefer to see the US/NATO play a bigger role as mediator and peace bringer, rather than staking out a clear side of the conflict.


by zonk on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:37:31 AM EST

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 3)

Wow, I just heard a report on BBC radio about what Georgia did to the capital of South Ossetia. They really leveled it and killed lots of people. It is amazing how complicit the media is in propagating the storyline of "poor Georgia" versus the "The Russian Bear." This isn't to say that Russia was not way heavy handed in its response but the Georgian military started the aggression and was really hard core. Why do they want to hold on to the province so desperately. Can anyone explain this?


by wasder on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 10:50:16 AM EST

Are we sure on that? (2.00 / 1)

Information coming out of the region is sketchy at best.  Last I heard, the South Ossetians haven't been holding back, either, and are burning and looting cities while Russian troops watch.

The question is, is the damage being reported on caused by Georgian military, South Ossetian rebels, or (more likely) both?

The media is right in saying that this was a disproportionate response by Russia on a tiny neighbor.  Unless Georgia set up Holocaust-style death camps or something, there's no way that level of invasion could be justified.  It would've been like us invading Iraq in the '80s because they were using chemical weapons on the Kurds within their borders.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 11:19:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are we sure on that? (2.00 / 1)

I am not sure that it is only Georgian military damage but the BBC reporter seemed to indicate that there was a pretty heavy-handed initial barrage by Georgia.


by wasder on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:30:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I understand that (2.00 / 1)

I also think the playground rule is in effect.  We don't know why they used that much force.  Were they just making a big play while everyone was distracted at the Olympics, or did the separtists start blowing up government buildings first?  I dunno.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:37:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 2)

Outstanding diary, Shaun.  Best I've yet seen anywhere on the subject.  Rec'd.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 11:15:47 AM EST

Re: What is happening in Georgia? (2.00 / 1)

Polman's article has two faults.

First, for NATO to become involved, it would have to be proven that Russia was the aggressor.  This is why NATO isn't involved in Iraq, but IS involved in Afghanistan.

Second, if Georgia were a part of NATO, then it's not possible to assume what Russian actions might have been.  His assumption that we'd be in a war with Russia right now is based on holding everything constant but one detail---Georgia's NATO membership---but that one detail is crucial to everything else.


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 12:11:02 PM EST

I was thinking the same thing (2.00 / 2)

If Georgia were NATO, then I don't think Russia would have attacked in the first place.  There also probably would have been more of a NATO effort to sort out the existing civil conflict in Georgia, with (real) peacekeeping troops.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

Pres